Liebman Quote on Innovators

**dr-funkenstein** · July 24th, 2005, 03:57 AM

"In fact, near virtuosity is mandatory. Every succeeding generation throws down the gauntlet as far as raising the bar in this way. What was innovative and new becomes standard and required. In the past few decades since Coltrane the level of proficiency on the instrument has risen dramatically. Now everybody is a speed demon. If you look at the true innovators, the first observable level is often technical. In general, the innovators definitely raised the technical level on their instruments. Louis Armstrong, Bird and Coltrane all did that for sure. Alongside this contribution, they added something musically, not to mention spiritually which became transferable to all instruments and the music itself. That is true innovation."

[/QUOTE]

DL was relating technique to the natural progression of generations of music/musicians- not as much to indivdual players.

when he pointed out individuals, he was saying their true innovation was in fact NOT AS MUCH technical as it was the larger impact of their musical/spiritual expression which would effect music . . . not just the evolution of instrumental technique.

technical evolution is a given- that "thing" that makes someone innovative is what DL is alluding to, not comments on the (obvious) importance of technique.

to question whether tony was an innovator but to accept mike clark as a defacto innovator is odd to me.

ALL the dudes we talk about on this board do SOMETHING innovative-

**Henry II** · July 24th, 2005, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by Jonathan599:
No doubt he was a musical innovator. But how did he raise the bar technically? I thought he served as a fair counterexample to Lieb's generalization. Please explain.

[ July 21, 2005 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan599 ]

[ July 21, 2005 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan599 ]

Jack DeJohnette has a ton of chops. But, I don't know if it is fair to say that he raised the level of technique on his instrument. Perhaps his bass foot independence and phrasing was raised to a new level when he first did that kind of thing.

Yet, he is definitely a musical innovator. I credit JD with fusing rock/funk snare and bass drum phrasing/interaction with swingtime in a way no one did before. And that innovation is related to the technical aspects of JD's playing that separated him from his contemporaries.

So, to that extent, Liebman is right.

[ July 24, 2005 05:48 PM: Message edited by: Henry II ]

**Henry II** · July 24th, 2005, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by Flarobstix:
I personally don't think of chops and technique, as simply speed. I include touch and sound. Jack has tons of speed. His approach is unorthadox, but technically, he's a master like anyone else. He simply has his own take on it.
After having seen Jack play up close dozens of time, I feel that you can't play drums the way he does unless you have amazing technical ability. To get his sound, and phrase the way he does, you need chops. It's just that his usage is so perfect and so musical that your mind doesn't go there. Watch him next time. It's pretty sick.
I think of ocean waves when I hear Jack.
Also, please tell me how Tony Williams raised the bar technically.
Do you really think everything he played was technically original? Not in my opinion. People in the middle east were playing groupings before Tony was born. People in this country were swingin' and playing rudiments at lightning speed before he was born. What was so original about Tony?? In my opinion, his approach. He didn't have more chops than Buddy or Philly, and technically didn't play anything more difficult. To me it was unorthadox musicality. His drop outs, his phrasing, his sound, his ride cymbal playing. Not his hands or feet.
The reality is that music is what it's all about. These people make amazing music. 2% of all professional drummers are actually musical in my opinion. If it weren't for clinic tours, 50% of the big name choppers would be out of work. It's about the music. Drummers that work in a high level ensemble setting everyday of their lives are the real drummers for me.
When was the last time you Bill Stewart in clinic?

[ July 21, 2005 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Flarobstix ]

[ July 21, 2005 01:04 PM: Message edited by: Flarobstix ]

I've seen Jack DeJohnette in a clinic.

**dr-funkenstein** · July 25th, 2005, 12:36 AM

JD has chops to spare. he is piano player and thinks VERY musically. sometimes finesse players dont get credit for their chops. in jacks case, they are formidable.

i am still working on my inverted cheese-cha-chudda raddamadoodle off the left.

**blake1** · July 25th, 2005, 01:08 AM

I'm not sure if the Liebman quote is his philosophy, We've played together, and at that time, he had a different view of the matter.

Got to be careful with pinning one's words to their philosophy. Words only go so far.

Miles and Monk. They created music based on how they could play the instrument. They were innovators of music and also their instruments.

Much music and great music at that can be created with little technique. Look at how much the Blues artists can milk a 12 bar blues.

The Shaggs and Alan Holdworth are both valid in my book. Love them both...

**got_a_matchgrip** · July 25th, 2005, 03:41 AM

What'd you [dsop] say? /;-p

[Ah...nevermind. Word.]

[ July 24, 2005 12:47 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]

**PocketPlayer** · July 25th, 2005, 10:09 AM

"If you make a mistake while playing, immediately repeat the mistake...they'll call you one of the great innovators of our time."

Stewart Copeland

My philosophy ever since I played my first Live gig!

**got_a_matchgrip** · July 25th, 2005, 03:53 PM

I personally don't think of chops and technique, as simply speed. I include touch and sound...

I agree. & perhaps more [my earlier post].

Much music and great music at that can be created with little technique

I agree w that AW [w/out going into the various definitions of the idea of "technique" - tho even the simplest forms of music also involve some sort of "technq"...i took that to be meant "more notes or groupgs, or busier, etc"... /;-)]. [img]cool.gif[/img]

It "runs the gamut."

[ July 26, 2005 02:21 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]

Thread: Liebman Quote on Innovators

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